No Fats or Fems: A Gay Culture that is at War with Itself
Jeremy, a musician and writer in Tampa, Florida, submits this original post about his observations on the perpetuation of gay stereotypes and our acceptance of each other.
It has always bothered me how mean we are to each other, but I didn't realize quite how much until recently. In Florida, where I live, 62% of the voters passed Amendment Two. It was disheartening to me that 62% of the state that I live in does not think I should have equal rights. Even more disturbing is on election night, after hearing the amendment passed, I logged into the gay chat rooms and browsed over the internet personal ads full of negative messages. As much as the majority of the general public may think unfavorably of us, it seems even more so we think unfavorably of each other. IT HAS GOT TO STOP.
Of the fifty ads I browsed, over 80% contained a negative message. Some examples:
It broke my heart to see the majority of my peers were filling their limited profile space not with what they were looking for in a partner, but instead what they were NOT looking for. Being a 33 year old gay male, I can feel the negativity at clubs as well as online. It may be my own insecurities, but whenever I am around a lot of attractive men I feel like the nerdy kid in gym class. The weirdo. The one that people pass over when picking their team. And I'm not even a fat or a femme!
Now, more than ever, the gay culture needs to get together and start loving and respecting each other. The language we use to dismiss and degrade one another needs to be banished and discouraged. We need to stop using terms like fats, femmes, twinks, and trolls. We need to get together. We need to accept, love, and develop friendships with each other. If the gay community could get its act together and stop being so segregated, imagine the statement that could be made nationally!
It is important for us to stop using the language we are using. We must stop dehumanizing people because they don't go to the gym five days a week. Stop thinking so negatively of feminine behavior. Let's embrace and celebrate both the feminine and masculine sides of ourselves. I see so many of my gay male peers trying ever so hard to prove their masculinity to both themselves and their perspective partners. Why is machismo so celebratory? I feel it goes back to our culture's subtle sexist view of females. It seems that to be gay and feminine is frowned upon. The basis of most gay-themed jokes has its character engaging in feminine behavior. Why is it funny for a man to have stereotypically feminine characteristics? So what? In the year 2008 why are we still creating such a narrow set of behavioral expectations?
Not only does the heterosexual public seem to look negatively on a lot of stereotypically gay behavior, we do so amongst ourselves. Why all this effort to appear "not gay"? Why the obsession with being a "jock" or "stud" or "straight acting"? Let's celebrate our own nuances and love the variety within ourselves. Can we do it or are we going to hate and degrade anyone who is not 6’1” and one 145 pounds with blonde hair?
This is my call for all fellow gay people to stop being at odds with each other. WE NEED TO ACCEPT AND LOVE EACH OTHER FOR WHO WE ALL ARE. Let's quit excluding and degrading each other. I want the country to accept us, but before that, I want us to accept ourselves. Fat, thin, black, white, masculine, feminine. We must all be one, now more than ever.
33 comments:
I know, I get a similar feeling when it come to stereotypical gay things. Like we are all supposed to disprove stereotypes and not doing so is looked downed upon. I hate that I get embarrassed mentioning that I like musicals. I sing show tunes, go to see live productions, and there is nothing wrong with that.
I know, I get a similar feeling when it come to stereotypical gay things. Like we are all supposed to disprove stereotypes and not doing so is looked downed upon. I hate that I get embarrassed mentioning that I like musicals. I sing show tunes, go to see live productions, and there is nothing wrong with that.
A fundamental precept of the gay rights movement is that we, as gay people, don't control who we are attracted to. On one level, this is just a discussion about gender, but I'm not sure it's any more reasonable to expect guys to be attracted to a certain physical archetype (twinks, bears, jocks, etc.) or even ethnic group than it is to expect them to be attracted to women. Attraction, to a large extent, is a visceral response, and either it's there or it's not.
I agree that "no fats or femmes" and "no chocolate or rice" are overly negative, but sites like Manhunt, Craigslist, etc., serve primarily to facilitate the efficient arrangement of hookups, and I suppose everyone wastes time by beating around the bush, as it were, and writing to people with whom they don't have a chance of making a connection. Also, I'm not sure that comparable positive assertions (e.g., "white twinks only") are any better.
You were cruising hook-up sites. I don't see the connection between that and gay marriage rights at all. A more relevant argument could be made about whether or not we are respecting each other when using hook-up sites at all. But i don't see any problem in indicating what I'm interested in when posting to manhunt. Just like its not misogynistic of me to indicate "no women" (I'm gay) i also don't think its offense for me to indicate that I don't want someone old or overweight. If I'm cruising for sex, I want to hook-up with someone that turns me on, not someone i have a mental connection with.
This sounds more to me like the rant of somebody who is insecure about their own appearance. Trust me man, no matter how you look, there's someone on manhunt that wants to bang you.
@Andrew and @amory: I find it more interesting that you took the statements "gay chat rooms" and "internet personal ads" and immediately assumed that he was looking at Craigslist and Manhunt. While less prevalent on other sites like Match, OkCupid, etc. where ostensibly people are looking for more than just sex, these sentiments are seen there as well.
You are right that physical attraction is important, but it was basically the macho bravado of a number of American subcultures which did us in on these amendments. So it isn't unreasonable for someone, anyone, either secure or insecure, to point out the hypocrisy in complaining about the homophobia of others, when there's plenty of internalized homophobia to spread around.
@Jack: you're right that dating sites also have these sentiments, but they tend, I think, to lean much more towards "I'm smart, funny, ambitious, and like long walks on the beach." The author didn't specify which sites he was visiting, but he did say 80% of the ads he viewed contained the sorts of messages of which his list was apparently a representative sample. So we're not talking about Match.com. We're talking about a hookup site.
And no, I don't think only being attracted to a certain subset of gay men is either hypocritical or representative of internalized homophobia. I'd probably be a little sketched out if someone twice my age hit on me at a bar, for example, and it would have nothing to do with my attitudes about either my own sexuality or his. It's just not what I'm attracted to, and again, I think gays, of all people, have about had their fill of having to defend themselves for that.
Truth be told, there are a lot of people that I don't want to have sex with. It could be the way they look, the way they treat me or the way they present themselves. I doubt that bothers anyone. I don't answer ads that say "no fats." It's a waste of my time. There's something else going on here and we need to figure it out.
This is not about sex. This is about respect. If I'm not your idea of a dream date that's fine. A line is crossed, however, when it is conveyed in no uncertain terms that I'm not a worthwhile person and an embarrassment to gaydom because you don't want to have sex with me and you can't imagine that anyone, anywhere, ever would. Boys will be boys and here we are bringing something home from out there in straight world. I'm sure you've heard of "gay panic." Google it for yourself but here is the Wiki version:
According to the gay panic defense, the defendant claims that he or she was the object of romantic or sexual advances by the victim. The defendant found the propositions so offensive and frightening that it brought on a psychotic state characterized by unusual violence.
Usually "fat, fem and troll panic" is confined to verbal violence with a little pushing and shoving but you never know. Do you see the connection with the line of reasoning that keeps Don''t Ask-Don't tell on the books? Macho het soldiers (sailors, marines and airmen) are afraid that a queer will "look" at them in the shower. At least that's the brass' story and they're sticking to it.
Queers in the midst of a "fat panic" episode freak out because they're afraid I'll come on to them. They're grossed out that someone they don't think is adequate or appropriate as a sex partner finds them attractive and decide to lash out. Exactly whose insecurities are marching proudly across the landscape here? Won't a simple "No Thanks" work?
The "slash and burn" protocol in gay dating doesn't work, boys, it's time to give it up. If you think the troll over there is looking at you I suggest you get over yourself and move on. Convince me you'd don't love the attention. Your "fat, troll or fem panic" reaction is inappropriate and disingenuous.
Sassy, I think you're being a bit unfair about people's reactions and this conversation is getting really complicated. Non-attraction panic also occurs because there actually are people who are so obliviously horny that they cannot recognize hints or even hear the word "no" and, unfortunately, must be told to bugger off. We all have stories of that guy who won't take no for an answer or know friends who've been raped or had sex forced on them, but don't come forward because the gay world allows for far too much sexual aggression/alcohol consumption to pass as "not a big deal." I agree with you that people must be treated respectfully, UNLESS they are taking too many liberties and forcing their sexuality on the object of their desire.
"You were cruising hook-up sites. I don't see the connection between that and gay marriage rights at all. A more relevant argument could be made about whether or not we are respecting each other when using hook-up sites at all. But i don't see any problem in indicating what I'm interested in when posting to manhunt."
I think his point was that while we're dealing with the aftermath of three ballot initiatives that were voted by a plurality in several states and dealing with the external issues of bigotry against us as a community by a segment of the population, we shouldn't cast a blind eye to behaviors within our community that lead to a since of ostracization within. I see no failure in the logic that he is making. The point is that many people within the gay community find it readily okay to make disparaging remarks about others based on a number of factors including race, age, and perceived attitudes about physical appearance.
I don't disparage, nor disagree with, the idea that there are many factors that affect who and what we find attractive in partners. However, there are better ways to articulate those things than in terms that are demeaning to those who don't fit our own personal criteria without having to beat around the bush. I think the criticism is concerning specific language and attitudes that are all to common that say it's okay to simply treat someone as if they're less than human because they don't fulfill our criteria of what we find attractive.
Who's the "skinny-fat" twink in the picture?
More seriously, youth, such as it is, is by default arrogant, self-absorbed and delusional about their own attraction. In time this fades to bitterness and too many drinks at JR's 5 nights a week, spawned by dealing with the mundane nature of life, their dreams crushed and the DC bureaucracy. Sure there are exceptions to this rule, but for the most part I hated the young'uns when I was their age and consider their dismissal of other to be beneath me to get riled up about.
Find you niche. Besides websites of that nature are about efficiency, and efficiency is no friend to long getting to know you sessions.
You forgot "no drink/drug/disease" as though being HIV positive were comparable to being a drug addict. There is a great deal of prejudice aimed at HIV positive men. I'm not surprised it was ignored by TNG in this post and by readers in this comment thread.
I learned a long time ago those with specific expectations stay alone for a long time.
For me, a lot of this has to do with authenticity. I agree that often our attractions run how they run, but when are those attractions products of marketing and cultural expectation as opposed to true desire and sensual experience?
At a certain point in my gay life, I was attracted to the standard gay image - beefed-out, yet with a six pack, clean cut, shaved, plucked, etc. But that narrow window actually wasn't the only type of person I enjoyed sexually. Once I admitted that I'm a tart and am pretty much attracted to a WIDE swath of folks, I allowed myself to own up to the fact that I could get down with lots of different people - and this was a fantastic recognition.
I also agree with the person (Ssassynfat, I think?) who said that when we cross the line from "I'm not interested" to disrespect (read Tim Bergling's "Sissyphobia" for an interesting, anecdotal take on some of this) we only feed a swirling negativity that contributes to the self-confidence malaise permeating the gay male experience.
Andrew Pendleton, you are my new hero of the week. I like your honesty and no-nonse responses. And I completely agree with them and would take them a bit further: gay culture in America is just a sub-product of the broader society where it exists. American culture (by and large) puts a premium on youth, beauty and health. Therefore, it is only natural that American gay culture does the same. Also, it is a bit unfair to characterize gay culture based on what constitutes just the most visible (sadly so) part of the overall community.
Really interesting conversation, folks. To dredge up an earlier conversation, what Jeremy laid out here is one of the reasons that lesbians (or at least many in my "lesbian posse") avoid gay men. Oh, don't get me wrong, we have our own biases and can get quite hateful regarding the whole butch vs femme thing. But there's a stereotype that gay men would just as soon spit on you rather than look at you if you aren't of perfect physique, aren't the epitome of fashion, etc. And this percieved attitute spans outside hookups but rather includes who you would even associate with. It's like we're afraid you all are catty bitches... I know that's not really fair though
Gay/Lesbian culture should try to be about the best we have, no? About the fact that unusual and different is not bad but a fact of life, to be accepted and then made the most of that one can.
I think in we are still using the language of a segregated society, and turning it inwards on ourselves -- 'people look down on me because I'm gay, so I will look down you because you are fat' -- instead of just dropping the segregation act altogether.
That, and the creativity that comes from just embracing difference and having an open mind, is what gay/lesbian culture should be about and what we can pass on as our heritage.
Which is not to say that we cannot choose who to be with, date, associate. But since one can make good choices out of bad principles, and bad choices out of perfectly good feelings, is a good to question where we are coming from, as long as the questioning does not become a never-ending loop of paralyzing doubt and self-referentialism. Come to think of it, that could be our other contribution :-)
"It may be my own insecurities, but whenever I am around a lot of attractive men I feel like the nerdy kid in gym class. The weirdo. The one that people pass over when picking their team. And I'm not even a fat or a femme!"
Jeremy,
This is the part of your article that I found to be most interesting. For who's benefit did you include the 'And I'm not even fat or a femme" part? Your observation is great, I have admired many of your blog's, but it still amazes me when that part of ourselves, that internalized part of ourselves that says we're not really worth it come out. We can talk about fats and femmes, but please understand that I am not one of them! Well I am and I really don't care if you are or not, but you had to let me know. I wonder if your blog would have been written the same if you were? (I guess I am entitled to a little rank every once in awhile.) no offense please.
with respect,
Chris VonTanner
Awesome conversation, guys.
I have a unique experience living on both sides of this equation.
I have struggled with weight my whole life, and when a year ago I learned that I was to become single after many years partnered, I was 230 pounds. At that point in my life, I really needed to make gay friends, as most of mine were originally my ex-partner's. Trying to be "seen" in our community, even not for sex, at 230 pounds is damn near impossible. People are just disrespectful. Ssassynfat, you hit it on the head. I don't care if people do not want to sleep with me. I do care that they respect my humanity. As a fat person, I was not looking for sex, I was looking for friendship.
Since then, I have lost about 45 pounds. Now, apparently I am attractive so, people want to talk to me much more than before. I am having an easier time making gay friends. I guess before, I made them look unattractive by association? I dunno.
It is remarkable to see how differently I am treated as a thin person v. being a fat person. I felt like I did not even belong in gay spaces as a fat person. I remember maybe 5 years ago walking into VelvetNation and someone made a comment about how I missed the WeightWatchers meeting. Great. Thanks.
I love that my article has opened up a discussion! In re: to Chris Von Tanner's comment---what a good acute observation :) I guess when I wrote it I was more thinking "well shit, if I feel this much negative energy coming at me at 165 lbs...I can empathize with what someone who is 300 might have to endure."
I'm going to summarize what I thing are the most important comments above: that referring to someone as "a fat" or "a femme" is degrading.
Saying what you are or are not attracted to is perfectly fine. Saying it in a derogatory way is not. Calling someone "a fat" or "a femme" dehumanizes them. That's the crux of this issue.
The most interesting part is that the author of this post perpetuates this dehumanization by trying to defend himself, stating "And I'm not even a fat or a femme!"
This makes me wonder whether the author of the post would agree with me that it's okay to state physical parameters in online ads if it's done in respectful ways.
I think that what you are saying is totally awesome and amazing, BUT, i think that the problem is not in using language like fat or femme. if we starting saying that those are bad words to use, then it makes that a bad thing to be. some people are fat, and some people are femme, and that is totally perfect. i think that it would be more beneficial to teach people to take power from these things and claim them as a righteous thing to be, and teach that they are not bad. i think that when we, as a gay community, are trying really hard to be straight white skinny "perfect" males, and that's just not how it is. we can't spend our lives faking it, and why should we? each of us are totally amazing and beautiful in our own right, and it's something that's worth claiming power in. i would say keep using those words, but stop making them seem like they're wrong. why would we want to be boring skinny straight white people anyway?
Lets all stop for a minute.
Think about this:
Where does this bigotry stem from?
I believe it stems from each and every person on this planet. Including the author, the posters. Including you reading this now, and also myself.
Every person; Man or Woman, Black or White, Gay or Straight, Fat or Fem, whatever! Has a right to be attracted to whoever they want. It's an uncontrollable feeling that is a part of human genetic make-up: It's a simple uncontrollable chemical reaction in the brain.
You can't debate a chemical reaction.
So why are we still debating?
Because, 6'2" 150lbs Blonde Hair Blue Eyes Masculine Abercrombie Boys are more attractive to the majority.
The Solution:
Lose your insecurity. If you don't fit the above description (9 out of 10 don't) then find what makes you special. Find someone you're attracted to, and show them why you're special.
Problem solved. Bigotry isn't going anywhere people, it's been around before you and it'll be around much longer. When we stop sulking in it, new doors open to deeper possibilities.
Good comments. May I simply suggest this: do what you can to lose your emotional investment in having someone else fall in love with you. I check out the cute guys as I walk around the city, but I do my best not to be invested in having them check me out in turn. (If they do, it's a wonderful surprise!) The speech used in these *ManMeat* ads may sound derogatory, but the ads really are just about hooking up, not about creating social solidarity. The spheres may overlap occasionally, but they really are two different aspects of gay life. I mean, would you really want someone to date you because they believe it's the politically correct thing to do?
From what Ive seen after living in Dupont Circle for 5 years, have gone to all the gay clubs/lounges/bars, DC is divided (in my mind) into several groups:
'A crowd' (those who are youngish 20s, 30's and think, wish to be part of the "gay elite".
'Gay foreigners' (guys from all over the world, working in international organizations/companies, went to very good schools, prefer to stick to other foreigners)
'Hipsters' (drink bear, dress hipsterish, dont mind leaving 5 o clock shadow)
'Bear/Hairy'- okay with their body, go to Ptown or Rehoboth, love eating at nice restaurants)
'Latinos' (from El Salvado, Guatemala or some central american country), love dancing and living it up)
'Blacks' (dress well, hang out together, love martinis, muscular or nice tight bod)
'Asians (they all go to Gtown or GW, very thin).
'Twinks' (all the young gay guys from the many universities)
'Elite' (usually already partnered, own business, beautiful homes/apartments in several cities, travel all over world, usually older)
'Intelectuals' (all those gays that are TYPE A, going for there Law degress, MBS, Doctorate, etc etc)
Conclusion
I think the beauty of DC is that you can make friends with people from all these groups.
Asking what group I'm in? I'm a 'Foreigner'.
wow that previous comment is pretty insane. Asians: go to GW or GTown and are all thin?
Whatever. Pigeonholing is pretty retarded.
Anonymous 11/10/08 6:49pm said it best "don't judge other gay men no matter who you are and no matter how they act."
And yeah, the gay version of manly is pretty damn gay. Nothing wrong with that, but they need to get off their high horse, because they are pretty fem.
I was agreeing with you.
Hey, sorry Greg. I think it's clear I did not get that. I'm not nearly as smart as I think I am sometimes. Thanks for being cool.
I agree with you: the gay version of manly is pretty damn gay. Why is it they are the only ones who can't see that? You just gotta laugh.
Great post!! Love all the diverse comments :-)
I think that most gay men should seriously stop living this gay fantasy of perfection which infact is so flawed to the extent that it's really sick! I mean imagine everyone was thin as a rail and masculine? The same thing that happening in the hetero community is applied in the homo community - masculine vs feminine - feminine guys are treat the same oppressive way that women a treated and at times worse depending on circumstances. I have a naturally chubby, big bone build which gives me a stocky appearence - if you look back at all my pics I have always had a wideset body, some love my body others don't but it's a constant battle daily because society keeps spitting out images of people with toned bodies and one type of physical attractiveness .. and it's daily and you can try your utmost to ignore it..but it's rubbed in your face constantly. It's really sad because your self-worth degrades and you punish yourself and it's difficult to get out of that mindset but things will get better for us all :-) We should just stand up and start dethrowning those demonic assholes behind the curtain who keep throwing thier shit in our faces, dehumanizing us, dividing us up and conquering us. We are all enslaved to this Evil God who we give power too but only when we realise that he cannot dominate us and our essence - shall we set free by the real Loving and Truthful Mother Divine, I can attest that she lives inside us all just search,listen,smell and that essence will appear. Peace, Love, Happiness to you all!! Blessings from the Mother Divine who does watch over you all!
I have been overweight all of my life. I've never had to "came out" everyone just knows that I'm gay. I have a femme sounding soft voice. I swish when I walk. I have been called fat and fem and a troll. I've always have had to deal with "name calling" and honestly it's not fun being called anything negative. Sometimes I get my feelings hurt but I've learned to get over it faster. It is dishearting because I feel that a majority of men have the "NO FATS, NO FEMS" attitude. Dating for me has been rough, I often feel as though I've not been given the chance for men to get to know the real me and it seems like because I'm considered fat and fem I'm not a MAN. It's funny though because for me to get to know someone, I don't say that you have to be "straight acting" or masculine or that you have to be a man that's into sports, cars, hunting and fishing. I also don't go around to the guys that are more MANLY than me and say to them "YOU ARE A WANNA BE MAN", or say something like I think your acting too straight you might wanna tone it down. I also think that it is interesting that the guys that are MASCULINE and STRAIGHT ACTING have to state that all the time. When I was a teenager and called FAG and QUEER is much the same as being called FAT and FEM or TROLL. It's just funny to see that grown adult MEN still have to resort to name calling. My best friend is a 100% straight MAN and I have known him all my life, he does not care one bit that I'm a FAT or FEM or a TROLL and he does not call me anything expect his best friend, NOW THAT'S A REAL MAN.
The funny thing is about all this is that this whole 'war' that is going on is actually seeping into the hetero world.
Just this past New Year's Eve my friend... straight, educated and even smart for that matter... tells me that I'm a bear...
I am by no means a stick-thin man.. but I am 6 feet and 180lbs.
I am about as average-sized as they come.... what he tells me is that there are two types of gay guys -- twinks and bears. And, of course, since I am not stick thin, it clears makes me a bear.
This is the knowledge that people have of gay culture... because in all honesty a lot of the time it feels like these are the only options... You're not in perfect shape? BAM! Fatty!
And, also, my friend continues to discuss gay culture by telling me that I am a top. Let me repeat that.... HE told ME I was a top. As if I had no say. Because according to him there is absolutely no bears who are bottoms. And because I wasn't a twink (since I am NORMAL looking) I must be a top -- because bears definitely don't bottom.
So I politely responded with saying why did I have to be either? People can enjoy both (my attempt to slightly educate him -- as hopeless as it was).
And his perfect response: "No they can't -- you are either bottom or top"
That's how he understood it... and funny enough I think that's how too many gay men understand it. You can't be fat or bearish because you are instantly tagged as one type of person.
But in all honesty he is pretty dumb.
Randy, your friend reminds me a lot of when I was like 7, I asked my mother if a bear (the fuzzy four-legged kind) was a cat or a dog. She replied that it's neither, but a bear. I asked again, "But is it a cat or a dog?" I was incapable of understanding that furry animals could come in forms other than cats or dogs. I was 7.
Your friend needs to grow up. But even more interstingly, where did he "learn" all this "knowledge" anyway? Who's been misinforming him?
This is what happens when you create a culture based on "sex" and not common "sexuality" and trying to force it to be the exact polar opposite of "het culture". Human needs are human needs, regardless of the sexuality of the people having them. Everyone wants to be desired, and to be loved for who they are but in gay culture everyone wants these things without wanting to have to extend these same privilages to anyone else. The result, a Peter Pan culture of men who can't grow up, and can't relate to anyone in an adult intimate relationship but mindlessly chase youth and looks while desperately trying to cling to their own before succumbing to bitter lonely purchased sex. Is the lesbian community better...it used to be, but now it is full of "bois" who want to "top" chicks and cast them aside. Likewise the "het" world is now also full of childish, selfish "gimmie-gimmies" who can't handle commitment or real intimacy with a real-live flawed fellow human being who will grow old and wrinkly some day. Finally, we are all...gay, lesbian, bi, het...in the same lonely, superficial boat together. Selfishness; the great equalizer.
It wasn't this way 20 years ago. Sure, guys were still guys, and I'm the last kind of person to think there's such a thing as the "good old days", but there wasn't anything like the sort of blatant hostility that you find today on hookup sites or, for that matter, in sex clubs and bathhouses, what few of them remain. Sadly, I think a lot of it has to do with the proliferation of porn over the past 10 years. Today it seems like every guy is looking to re-enact his own version of a Fratmen video, and damnit if he's going to have sex with anyone who doesn't look like a porn actor. Of course, there was porn back in the day, but I don't think it was the predominant way that guys formed their ideas of attractiveness. You went to bars, bathhouses, and so on, and had sex with real people.
In capitalist democracy "sex" and "beauty" are commodities. That is why we have these attitudes and problems.
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