Lesbians, Bisexuals, and Gay Men: Friends or Better Off Alone?
When Zack, Ben, Michael and I decided to start throwing TNG parties last February, we did it with the intention of bringing together our readers, who we knew were gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, straight, etc. This was a chance to have a few drinks and have fun with a wide range of people. And while the former certainly happened, the latter did not.
Though the turnout was probably 80% gay men, 20% lesbians, our original goal was much more even. While there have been waves of women's attendance — August's party was overflowing with women — for the most part, numbers of women have been smaller.
I tried everything I could think of — holding women's only events to promote the blog, sending emails and messages to every lesbian I knew in D.C., and asking them to forward it to their friends — but to no avail. I thought about this a lot, but have started to wonder — "Do lesbians and bisexual women just not want to party with their gay guy friends?" And if that’s true, does that mean the reverse is as well?
When I first started going out in D.C., it was to gay bars, Cobalt in particular. I had fun — who wouldn't have fun on Thursdays, when drinks cost a pittance? But I had to get used to being one of the only women there — and all the others were my friends. But while fun, the bar was just not woman-friendly. It was nearly impossible to get a drink at the bar and so many men asked me what I was doing there.
I've had fun at lots of other gay bars — JR's, Apex, Jack's — but for the most part have been one of the only women there. I quickly realized that there were no mixed settings, and a mixed setting was something I greatly desired. Sure, women's parties and nights at Phase 1 were great —and increased my chances of making out with someone — but given that my gay friends go out much more often than my lesbian friends, I needed places to go with my gay friends without being the token woman.
So that’s why I was so excited when we started the TNG parties. I thought that I would hang out with exactly the type of people I wanted to — intelligent, fun, witty guys and girls — but it turns out that we just couldn’t get the attendance we wanted. I’ve heard from women who attend the TNG parties that there are too many men in attendance, and that they just want to hang out with other queer women. And I’ve heard that some gay men have questioned why there are women at the Solly's parties.
Whenever I bring up this topic with friends, they say that people like to stick with others who are like them — people go to bars to meet people to hook up with. Younger people like to stick with people their own age and not drink with people older than their parents. Lesbians go to the lesbian bar and gays go to the gay bars. So why am I trying to mix oil and water? Why not just accept that women don’t want to come to TNG parties and leave it at that?
Because when we all come together it creates community. And community is something that we all desperately need, especially given the recent spate of violence against gays. I love my gay friends, I’m pretty sure that some gay boys like to hang around me, and I’m sure the same is true for all of you.
** Editor's note: Please keep the comments polite and civil. Remember that TNG is for building community, not tossing around hateful names and trivializing others' experiences. Take a deep breath before replying to a comment you don't agree with. **
74 comments:
I'm pretty sure lesbians just tend to be drawn to the - (forgive me but it's true)- lame life-practice of "nesting"
It's not that they simply don't want to hang out with gay men, it's that there are simply too few that want to hang out with anyone past 8pm on a week night.
As a lesbian I find it endlessly frustrating. I have bitched, I have moaned, and now I have reluctantly accepted.
I agree with the goals of your efforts and they are noble, but you're fighting against simple human nature. I wouldn't say everyone is there to hook up with a like person, but people simply tend to hang out with others similar to them. Like Cheerios in milk, bunching together.
That said, DC bars are indeed WAAAY too segregated. Back inna day when Blowoff started there were twinks dancing with bears, and all was good, but even that venue has homogenized.
In smaller towns there is a lot more mixing. The Raven in Anchorage was a trip: big lumberjack lesbians, Navy and Army base boys, Phillipino laborers and Athabascan Native Americans and so much more - it was a trip and a lot of fun.
At every TNG event, at least two guys will say to me, "I tried to bring out my lesbians. I swear I did, but [lame excuse]." So clearly lesbians exist, and they are friends with gay men. Why they don't rally with their boy-gays to TNG parties.... that's a mystery.
Personally, the mix of boys and girls is one of my favorite things about the TNG parties. That and the name tags.
Forgive me, but it seems to me, at least, that gay men outnumber lesbians in the population and large, and that social forces are more apt to drive gay men than lesbians into urban areas, further magnifying the discrepancy in the city. It seems like, all other things being equal, a random sampling of DC queer folk would, indeed, have more men in it than women.
Alright, see. This is what I was saying in that e-mail you never replied to, Amy. This is hostile and all of these dismissive comments, especially Andrew Pendleton's, are hostile too. There's no reverence for anything factual. Just the supposition that men like circuit parties and therefore must live in urban areas. There's no homage paid to the reality of income disparity, no acknowledgment of that which you so naively express in your post (men ask me, "why are you here?") which just happens to be why a lot of dykes don't hang out in men's bars (which dominate the city, not necessarily because there are more men). Because we're constantly asked why the fuck we're in their space.
The hypocrisy is hilarious. I stand on the soapbox for Phase and people threaten lawsuits. Men in DC have a history of being exclusive and threatening towards their queer sisters, and they call it demographics.
Give me a fucking break.
yikes. talk about hostile...
i think if you're looking to build community, you have to attach something to an event other than just get wasted with a bunch of strangers. if i want to get wasted, i'll hang out with my friends. if there's a band or performance i want to see, or a social cause--then i'm more apt to go some place with a bunch of dudes and/or peeps i don't know.
it's annoying that when pressed on the divide between gay men and the rest of the queer scene, people fall back on stereotypes of queer identity. whenever a topic comes up that challenges these stereotypes, people seem to get frustrated and reactionary. i don't see the community building in that.
in the end, i think the problem is that you're asking people to do the hard work that you yourself are not willing to do. you want a wider variety of people to attend your events--then why not add some variety to your events? i understand the concept of branding and building loyalty to the events at solly's and the black cat. but ask yourself what do you trade for that loyalty? are you just creating another siloed gay community?
Please define "hostile." I'm not sure I know what you mean, because while his opinion isn't really fleshed out, I dont feel threatened by his comments, nor do I feel like there is enough information to label him "hypocritical" or "dismmissive."
I don't see how cursing and calling people names furthers the conversation in any constructive fashion. If you feel "safe" enough, why don't you try to engage him in a civil way and breed understanding? Better than taking a big dump on him or anyone else you don't agree with, or taking the high n mighty know it all road. That just shuts the conversation down or makes it devolve into crap. The reactionary stuff is so old gay.
Also, what email are you talking about? Not all the lesbians are clued in here.
Thank you for writing this post Ms. Cavanaugh.
I am a gay male and agree with you that gay life in disappointingly segregated. I have only attended two TNG parties at Solly's - August & September. I was relieved to see a more women at the August event as I enjoy hanging out with a mixed crowd.
I'm not surprised that some lesbians don't want to hang out with gay men. I don't either.
I have observed that gay men never meet anyone new when they go out. They rarely approach or engage others and find other men indifferent to the point of being rude. Most stand around in cliques engaged in intense conversations, laughing only with each other, their backs turned to everyone.
Sadly, my two experiences at TNG parties were no different. I saw many cool/fun looking people (and some incredibly attractive men) but stood there alone. I'm not looking for sex, just want to meet some new people, maybe make a friend or two. The highlight of the August event was two lesbians separately stopped to say hi, we had a great time talking. I left shortly thereafter.
At the September event I only stayed about ten minutes. There were hardly any women, a lot of cold looking men having fun in their cliques. I felt equally out of place as I would at Halo or JRs.
Still TNG events are (relatively) the best thing around and I am thankful to you, Zack, Ben and Michael for making them happen. I look forward to attending more.
Gotta agree with Meaghan on this one. Lesbians and people of color are not required (except in commercials and music videos) to be acoutrements to an urban gay experience rooted in bar culture and expensive real estate.
If you think you're surrounded by too much homogeneaity, stop complaining that other people don't worship your choices. Just enjoy your party and stop worrying why your life isn't filled with more diversity, 'cause you already know the answer to that question.
Ain't no shame. We can't all be Ghandi.
Anonymous - Look, I'm not going to sweeten my approach to win friends and influence people. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't work. You know what whispering does? It gets you ignored.
I'm quite content being the loud mouth, fierce bitch on this blog who steps up when injustice goes overlooked. I'm not going to soften the blow just so people will listen to me, either. They won't listen whether I'm nice or mean if they don't want to listen.
There is no way that you can even approach creating diverse community at TNG events, for example, when you only honor and listen to the people that don't offend or shake you up a little. If TNG is a homogenized vat of complacency, then I'm not interested.
Levi - RIGHT THE FUCK ON.
I don't know about other women on this list, but I honestly just don't like bars and overpriced drinks that much. Having a TNG potluck? Sign me up. Flaming fall bbq? I'd definitely think about it, especially if it didn't require me going hungover, tired, and $40-$60 poorer to work the next day. For me at least it's one part money, one part timing, and one part atmosphere.
I agree with Jasper: the urban gay experience is really narrowly defined. I'm in the suburbs and lead a much more diverse life than the urban gays I know of.
When I come to the city to go out (which is maybe once every 2 months) I see the same old, same old.
re: Meaghan
I like reading your comments. Unfortunately your anger obscures your (very good) points. I've learned from experience that people respond to your tone before your words. Yes, it's stupid and tedious but true. I think your message is more important than the emotion surrounding it.
re: Muddiboots
Right on!!! A BBQ is a great idea and gets people out of the bar thing which is pretty tired. I don't drink and end up with water or juice. Then guys ostracize me b/c they think I'm a recovering alcoholic or on drugs (I'm an athlete).
Drinks cost a lot and keep some away I'm sure.
This is obviously occurring because the womens are jealous of our hilarious genitalia.
Just sayin'.
I became interested in TNG because it promised to be over the rainbow. Still, most of the gatherings appear to be in bars and clubs, even if they aren't the usual gay bars. So I would be interested in some kind of picnic, potluck, coffeehouse discussion group, whatever.
BTW, Meaghan, I am sincerely confused here: how was the original post "hostile"? It seemed sincere to me.
my gay friends go out much more often than my lesbian friends
There's your answer, right there.
As several people have already said, I think the venue(s) is limiting you. Being on weeknights downtown is going to lose you a fair bit of the suburbs (cos that's a long damn commute). Bars are loud and expensive (even when the drinks are "cheap"... For the price of just me at a bar, I can make an evening's worth of mojitos for me and 3 friends in an environment where we can actually hear each other). And if the noise didn't preclude socialising with strangers, the cliques do.
It's the old "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results". Do something that's not in a bar. I'll second/third/whatever the potluck/bbq idea.
ok, so basically you're too cheap to come to a bar? fine. you can make your mojitos with your three friends (which honestly sounds like a good time to me) but that really defeats the purpose of trying to meet new people.
and more often than not, i've found people who complain of cliques are as much to blame as those in the cliques. striking up conversation with total strangers is hard for most people, regardless of the atmosphere.
and meaghan, i still think you need to calm the fuck down. it's just one spazz after another. drama queen.
After living in the burbs for quite a while, I was not altogether surprised to return to the exact same dynamic in the city, at least as far as the queer scene goes. A friend asked me what I thought of one of the TNG gatherings, and since I'm not capable of being dishonest, I told him it was the same old shit in tighter jeans. A bit harsh, to be sure, but that was my experience.
I have lots of luck meeting interesting new people in a couple of ways:
Don't go to only gay bars. I have met an endless number of fascinating friends by hanging out in the plain old bars and restaurants in my neighborhood, both in DC and in my former suburban life. If you don't like the cliques, etc., then the folks you meet in other places are often the exact same way, and then you can form your own little clique to irritate other people (gotta play it forward).
Additionally...
Host a gathering at your place where everybody has to bring someone that the entire group doesn't know well. Doubles the attendance, and makes sure everybody gets exposed to new people. Doesn't matter who shows up; hell, I love to invite at least one lunatic to keep things interesting.
This has worked well for me, but I'm also not hung up on being seen, or one to go out on the hunt for tail on a very frequent basis. Whatever your preference, bear in mind that just because the bars seem omnipresent, it doesn't mean that they're your only option in a place as large and interesting as DC.
I've certainly patronized a lot of bars over the years, and continue to do so. My problem with the bars is that alcohol makes it difficult to get to know people. Sure, it acts as a disinhibitor, lower some social barriers. But the person you are chatting with is that person on alcohol, not as they are without it. When people are drinking, they often aren't behaving like their usual selves (unless, God forbid, the person I'm speaking with is always drunk). This is why I miss the old coffee shop culture of the 90's.
I'm grooving on the comment from the anonymous "I'm an athlete" poster above. I don't drink, either, and honestly, even though I write for the blog and want to have a good time, I feel very awkward at the Solly's events. Between having to scream over the music and contend with the tipsy stumblers, it can all be a bit too much to bear.
What I've noticed, though, is that I go to book clubs, readings, movie screenings, other gay community events -- and very few people show up compared to how many appear as soon as drinking in a bar is the venue.
On the post's original topic, it's a shame that gays and lesbians don't spend more time together. We shouldn't have to spend time together because we're gay and lesbian, but it's a shame we don't because the narrower the demographic, the less interesting the occasion. It has been a historical truth, though, that gays and lesbians have largely segregated themselves ever since the beginning of the gay rights movement.
adam isn't here said: "ok, so basically you're too cheap to come to a bar?"
Cheap. Right - the only explanation.
That's fine. Poor gays are probably uncool, anyways. Who wants to hang out with them?
oh. my. god. the whining from the commenters on this blog sometimes is mind numbing. don't like bars? don't go. want to do something TNG-sponsored that doesn't involve solly's or the black cat? suggest it. michael, ben, zack, etc. are good people and i'm sure will be open to anything.
what i don't get from some of these comments on this post and others is the vitriol leveled at gay white men. meaghan, whoever - tell me how i need to live my life in order to make you comfortable with or less disdainful of me. i'm serious. not being facetious at all. i really want to know what you think the solution is.
It seems clear that we should be holding more non-bar events. Any more suggestions? We'd love to start planning something but will need some help from everyone out there. You can either post suggestions here or email them to info@thenewgay.net.
Call me the New Anonymous.
At the very least, the girls and boys are talking up the subject on here--talking up a storm--which is SO interesting.
i'm glad we're on the same page anderov. poors are soooo boring. if it were up to me they'd all just be scooped up with backhoes and ground into food. soylent green is pooooor (gay) peeeeeeeeeooople!!!!
there are other fun activities that can be planned that dont require bars. something simple that i think has helped strengthen the punk community im in is monday night kickball. ive attended only a few times but have always ended up meeting new people. or maybe some capture the flag, or a board game night, or a movie screening at someones house of relevant queer/trans movies. i know there have been screenings at the black cat before. afterwards you can open up a discussion. force people out of their comfort zone and make them interact with one another. how about speed FRIEND dating. a quick fun way to get to meet people you probably wouldnt go out of your way to talk to normally. not saying you should do away with sollys or homosonic because obviously people are showing up and it serves those people. but if its not serving everyone then provide more options.
also meaghan - i loved your post on gentrification and your continued comments. its refreshing to hear the points you bring up and know im not the only one who gets pissed.
and dear men of this blog: deal with your privilege. seriously its really annoying to see comment after comment from some white guy who is CLUELESS to the fact that they have more power in the world than other minorities. just because youre a member of a group that has been marginalized by the mainstream does not equal things out for you and every woman, trans individual, or person of color. there is a certain pecking order that you all are apparently blind to. im not saying ignore your struggle, or what you go through doesnt matter, but seriously how about some accountability? how about thinking about OTHER people?
I really wish people would respect this forum and comment seriously. Bitch, catty, queeny retorts, putdowns and dismissals are really uninteresting and contribute nothing.
I agree with Parker. I'm judged by gay men as not good enough. I'm disdained by lesbians as too white, too male, too privileged. I have even been called (by a lesbian "friend") the "male archetype of terror".
As a former AIDS activist and lifelong liberal progressive I find it all so irrelevant to be judged by people who were in 3rd grade while I was being arrested in New York for protesting the high cost of life saving medications for people dying of AIDS. It would be nice if some lesbians recognized that I am not a terrorist, that I am more than my race, class and biological sex but I don't think that is going to happen.
Parker, one solution is to leave. I moved years ago to the DC suburbs and find my quality of life improved dramatically.
TNG: please host some of your parties outside the bar environment.
I might be up for a non-bar event, provided I can find a free slot in my schedule.
I'm fairly booked with all the minority terrorizing, genocidal gentrification, and privileged white snobbery that I'm working on these days.
Would anybody be up for a self-guided walking tour of one of the many interesting neighborhoods in dc?
smergio - i really would like to know how it is that you can assume that me, in my life, am somehow unaccountable and don't think about "other people." by other people i assume you mean people other than gay white men. can you explain this to me?
let's assume that meaghan and smergio are correct and i am, by nature, the most racist, sexist, anti-trans person on earth. the creators of this forum and the events affiliated with are clearly not. they literally beg people other than gay white men to contribute writing and ideas. they aim to host events that are inclusive of all. zack just commented and solicited more ideas for non-bar events, which many have suggested today. so tell me, what do terrible gay white men like zack and myself need to do to make ourselves better in your eyes? die? again, i am being 100 percent serious.
I would be willing to do a walking tour of North Capitol Hill and the H Street corridor. Tons of interesting history here, and there are some good places to grab grub afterwards. Would just need a few days to bone up on my history again.
I think a walking tour sounds like fun. Thank you Daniel for making such a good suggestion.
Daniel, again you speak wisely. Walking tours would be interesting. Another possibility: DC and it's environs have some great walking trails, many of them metro accessible. I'd love the opportunity to share those with some folks, especially during the coming fall weekend afternoons.
I've wondered about this too. I have to say though, this seems to be much more or an issue in DC than most places. While in Philadelphia two weeks ago, every single bar and dance club I went to was extremely mixed. All genders, races, and ages were represented. Even all sexual orientations were out and about at the "gay" bars. I see this in New York and in Boston as well. Sure there are places that have more men and others with more women. The majority of spots though are often very mixed. Except here.
re: Philip
As an athlete I have practical reasons for not drinking: useless carbs, makes you fat and lazy. I learned a long time ago I actually have a better time out if I limit alcohol my intake or simply abstain. As I'm getting older I also notice how men my age look a little ragged from the late nights, drugs and alcohol.
It would be cool if TNG could host a non bar event once in a while. Maybe a daytime thing like a hike mentioned by landoftrolls?
The C&O Canal Park and Great Falls Park (both along the Potomac) have awesome trails. The Great Falls rapids are so intense the US Olympic team trains there. Now is a perfect time of year for it as the leaves are turning and the weather is cooler.
C&O Canal Park
http://www.nps.gov/choh/planyourvisit/hikingandbiking.htm
Great Falls Park
http://www.nps.gov/grfa/planyourvisit/outdooractivities.htm
I love sound of hikes and walking tours. Potlucks, barbeques and the like sound really great, too. It's amazing what we can come up with when we put our minds to it.
I so love the directions this conversation is going in!
A few reactions:
For those of us who seemingly don't know the privilege we've got, there have been times in my own learning curve when I've just needed some good help to widen my gaze on these issues. It sucks for members of the dispossessed group to be educators on this, but sometimes that might be what "clueless" people need. There's a fair amount white gay men can do on their own in terms of shifting their perspectives, but honestly, it takes interactions with some compassionate person who's willing to hold an honest, yet not-hateful, conversation.
I'm not sure exactly how that happens, but perhaps along with TNG parties, hikes, BBQs, etc., once in a while there could be a theme or topic that comes up here, and we could all have a good conversation over some cupcakes.
Speaking of cupcakes, Ms. Cavanaugh and I have fantasized about baking get-togethers. Everyone brings a baked good and copies of the recipe. Another gathering idea.
Great Falls is stunningly beautiful, and I go there with some regularity. The fall is a wonderful time for this spot, and I'd be willing to bet there's enough of us with cars that we can carpool from a Metro. Everyone brings some picnic treats, and we're good to go.
Finally, building community is hard work, especially among peoples who harbor years of understandable anger over fucked-up disenfranchisement. It's not a one-stop fix, and it takes time and commitment.
Thank you to TNG folks (founders, contributors and commenters) for stepping up and planting the seeds. Now it's time for the hard work of tending those seeds.
greg f-m -
how do you know that me or someone else isn't as enlightened as you and me on these issues we're discussing? my discomfort with these discussions we've been having on these blogs comes from those who are seemingly dismissing me, the TNG founders, and all gay white men just because they are gay white men. just as i would never dismiss someone because they are black, a woman, a lesbian, whatever, i expect not to be dismissed and criticized by the likes of meaghan because of how i was born. i'm happy to talk about these issues in any forum but i am not willing to talk to anyone who is just going to resort to cheap buzz words and quotations from sociology texts.
parker:
Well said. I make a very conscious effort to not generalize about anyone based on their race, ethnicity, or sexual orientation, and I take utmost offense to those who think it's okay to do so with me just because I happen to be a white guy. It's very insulting, very hypocritical, and very counterproductive toward the advancement of equality.
To all these white gay men who take issue with my approach to discussions like this: Fine. I can't really persuade you to think outside your box. And I can't really seem to get you to see what it's been like for me, and how my preferred method of viewing the world validates the nonsense I have to deal with daily as a white gay woman. And while I have been accused of speaking for POC, I have not and do not. But I feel quite comfortable saying that if their experiences were at all congruent with that of white [gay] men, we wouldn't still have rallies to fight injustice, here and abroad. We wouldn't have LAWS protecting the civil rights of people other than white men, and we wouldn't have to look back LESS THAN A CENTURY and reflect on how it wasn't exactly easy to be female or a POC. And that doesn't even pay credit to the shit we still have to deal with.
Yes, you're gay. You have some sort of connection to the community heretofore known as The Marginalized. Yes, you *should* understand disempowerment, bigotry, hate and what's it's like to not have laws protecting one facet of your ability to live freely and comfortably. But it does not negate the fact that you are still white men, and white men have been protected in the US since day one. There are no amendments written into our Constitution that have made it easier for you to live. You have had free reign since the beginning. Your sexuality does not negate that. It only complicates it.
And no, I don't know what it's like not to vote, or to not have control over my uterus, or not to have a credit card in my name, or what's it like not to be allowed to work (or at least frowned upon), or even what it's like to not be allowed to wear pants. I'm fortunate that I can do all those things quite freely since I was born in 1979 and made the cut. But the distinction between your ability to live freely and mine is that at ANY TIME, my rights could technically be taken away. Additionally, consider all of the "rights and privileges" extended to POC these days, and how that's all a relatively recent occurrence and how it's teetering constantly. And then imagine the mechanics behind all of these "rights and privileges" and who GAVE them to us and who can taketh away...WHITE MEN. And THAT is fucking hostile.
So look, I know it sucks that you feel I'm personally insulting all the AIDS volunteering you've done, or the fact that you're poor, or the fact that you were beaten because of your sexuality. It is absolutely horrible that I am not taking all of those really incredible and awful things into account.
But I'm charged with thinking a little more globally, and a little less personally. And the dissonance created by your whining tunes out any modicum of faith I have in the white gay male community to acknowledge their privilege and work for anyone BUT themselves in order to achieve true equality.
Call me a know-it-all, call me angry, call me misinformed, call me a ball-kicking feminazi. I don't really care. I know what's right.
Meaghan, it's very clear you are passionate and convicted. And I have to say I'm gratified that you at least choose not to comment anonymously - you have the courage of your convictions.
But your comment was, well, Palin-esque. You say a lot, but I don't read any specific answers to any specific questions asked.
1. What in the original post was hostile? We read your affirmation that it was hostile, but what in it was hostile?
2. What specific acts would you have white gay men do? I acknowledge that some privilege exists, but I have yet to read here, or anywhere else for that matter, what gay white men are supposed to do about it. So many times the only message that comes across is that white men are just supposed to feel bad. Well, that won't wash. No one should feel bad about the circumstances of his or her birth. I sincerely invite some concrete suggestions of specific actions from you, or anyone else, about what white men should do.
So look, I know it sucks that you feel I'm personally insulting all the AIDS volunteering you've done, or the fact that you're poor, or the fact that you were beaten because of your sexuality. It is absolutely horrible that I am not taking all of those really incredible and awful things into account.
-- Meaghan O'Malley
F U C K Y O U.
I spent 10 years of my life watching everyone I know (women, men and people of color) die. I did not survive, I did not fight for them to listen to you call that "AIDS volunteering". I have spent my entire adult life watching gay men die from AIDS and anti-gay violence. You don't even know gay history to speak so cavalierly and typically of someone "born in 1979". If you really want to transcend generalizations and stereotypes start with yourself.
"Whining"? You vile bitch. You really need to just go away.
Dear Commenters,
We understand that sensitive issues are being discussed here and that emotions are running high. But please remember that this is supposed to be an intelligent, safe forum for the sharing of ideas. Please keep comments respectful (if not polite) and try to avoid name calling.
TNG Zack
Well, Meaghan, thanks for replying. Looking closely at my comment, I did acknowledge the privilege exists. Can I please have step 2 now?
i'm glad meaghan is admitting that, having been born in 1979, she also has privileges that women born before her didn't have and that "anonymous gay white male's" dead friends will never have.
and way to go, meaghan, for bringing a personal beef you have with ms. cavanaugh into the internets for all to read about. real mature.
re: Zack
I think Meaghan has lowered the discourse. Her sophomoric rage is unbalanced and has compromised the safety of this space. I no longer feel TNG is an "intelligent, safe forum for the sharing of ideas."
** Editor's note: Please keep the comments polite and civil. Remember that TNG is for building community, not tossing around hateful names and trivializing others' experiences. Take a deep breath before replying to a comment you don't agree with. **
Folks, I often find myself disagreeing with Meaghan here, with her way of delivery as well as what she says. Nevertheless, I do think she has a right to comment here. Discourse, like most things, is a mix of rights and responsibilities, and while we can recommend to others what we believe those rights and responsibilities are, an individual can only act on those rights and responsibilities her- or himself. I believe that no matter what anyone writes here, each individual has the responsibility to manage her or his feelings before and during responding. That, IMHO, is how good discourse works.
I would chime in that I don't believe any useful conversation is ever "safe."
As for intelligent, well, I usually take what I can get and be thankful for it when it surfaces.
From my perspective, the important thing for us to understand is that we all exist in interlocking systems of oppression based on class, race, gender, sexuality, age, nationality, language, immigration status, ability, religion, etc. For most of us, we are in positions of privilege in some of these areas and are oppressed in others. We are born into most of these categories and we cannot control that. What we can do is begin by acknowledging our privilege, but more importantly, moving forward to take concrete action to stop racism, sexism, patriarchy, etc.
There are many resources and materials for helping to understand how people in positions of privilege can be allies in the struggle to end oppression. Here are some recommendations for white men:
Tim Wise's writing on white privilege is good: http://www.timwise.org/
A Promise and a Way of Life by Becky Thompson is excellent: http://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/T/thompson_promise.html
The Heart of Whiteness by Robert Jensen (available at Busboys & Poets) is also good: http://www.amazon.com/Heart-Whiteness-Confronting-Racism-Privilege/dp/0872864499
I have NOT read this book, but it looks very promising: http://www.whitemenchallengingracism.com/
The Catalyst Project also has useful resources on this subject: http://www.collectiveliberation.org/
Most importantly, we need to get beyond guilt and defensiveness and individualizing these systems and focus on how everyone needs to take responsibility for breaking down institutional oppression from their various positions.
Idi Amin, Jonas Savimbe, Ferdinand Marcos, Kim Jong Il, Jean Claude Duvalier, Muammar al-Qaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Muhammed Zia ul-Haq, Pervez Musharraf.
These are but a handful of violent non-white male dictators. I wonder if it would be considered politically correct to attack men of color for being male, privileged and part of the machine of oppression caused by these dictators. This is the level of logic I see in this comment thread.
This is not about race or sex. It is about power.
"...to be white confers advantage, just like being rich, or male, or straight, or able-bodied does, relative to those who are poor, women, LGBT or disabled."
-- Tim Wise
The "G" in LGBT refers to gay men, even those who are white.
I wonder if Tim Wise, would, or even could, write as passionately about homophobia and heterosexism as he can about white racism.
Probably not. As a white heterosexual male his most pressing issue is white racism not the heterosexist privilege he takes advantage of every day of his life.
I think that what some of us white men here have objected to is the implication that we don't already know that privilege exists. Many of us dealt with the whole white guilt thing years ago, realized it was a dead end, and got over it. We can be compassionate, vote progressively and understand how the world works, but beyond that there isn't a whole lot we can do. Feeling bad about it is an emotional energy drainer, and really doesn't help the other oppressed people of the world.
Live your life, be kind and take responsibility for yourself. And strive to let the criticisms of others roll off you if they aren't apt or helpful.
re: anonymous
You sound like me 20 years ago. To use your words: just because Meahan's primary experience of oppression may be with white patriarchy doesn't mean that it is the #1 issue that everyone should be focusing on.
Being probably 20 years older than you I am very well aware of the intersection of privilege and oppression and can do without the lengthy explanations. I am insulted that, because I am a white male, it is reflexively assumed I walk around complacently with an uninterrogated sense of self, that I have not worked my entire adult life to "uproot systems of oppression".
I'm oppressed all the time, sometimes by heterosexual male blacks and latinos. Am I to swallow it all b/c I am a white male? I don't think so. When you get older you'll understand.
Ok. This thread has been hijacked by one person to digress beyond recognition. I have really had it with this kind of tantrum/performance art.
Can we all focus instead on the important issues raised by Ms. Cavanaugh in her original post? I think she was looking for constructive ways to overcome the problem of segregated space and thinking.
The hiking and daytime stuff is a great idea: it's free and not limited to just women or men. If anyone has more suggestions or ideas I would love to hear them.
Ok, last comment and then I'm done.
landoftrolls: I'm glad that you got over white guilt and that is exactly what I said here "Most importantly, we need to get beyond guilt..." The reason why I listed specific books and websites is because those resources explain specific ways that white people have historically contributed to supporting oppressed people beyond just voting. This was in reference to your question: "What specific acts would you have white gay men do?" I would say that there are other things we can do and I would encourage folks to check out those resources for examples.
Anon. WGM: It is not reflexively assumed that you walk around with an uninterrogated sense of self. That is assumed because you say that you are "very well aware of the intersection of privilege and oppression" but yet, continue to misinterpret comments about recognizing racial privilege and working to change that as meaning that you should "swallow" homophobia. I think I said pretty clearly that we should definitely fight heterosexist oppression. Can't we fight homophobic attacks on us while also acknowledging that we are racial privileged and committed to fighting racism? I also want to note that I respect your role in the AIDS activism movement. I have also been arrested fighting for access to AIDS medication and I recognize the important role that activists like you have played in building the ongoing movement against AIDS.
Finally, just want to close by saying that I feel that this discussion is relevant to the original question of why different sectors of the queer community are segmented in DC because this discussion has made very clear that we're not all understanding each other when it comes to the problems we face and the solutions we're looking for -- which can then lead to a lack of excitement about hanging out together socially.
On that note, I'm out of this conversation.
I'm up for hiking, neighborhood exploration or some sort of potluck thing. Those were great ideas.
Anybody here like playing paintball? :)
Paintball sounds cool. I've never played but have wanted to. Can you post specifics? Where can we play a game?
also who has the nerve to use non-white dictators as an example of power in countries where whites are the minority? we are talking about our culture, we are talking about people in our country, we are talking about the majority here. oh wait youre now going to say that a woman ran for president here therefore women have equal amount of power too right? someone already pointed out obama running for president which of course throws out all of that silly slavery right? the power is back in black peoples hands! women and black people have power yall! all is good in the world! im chilean so ill add pinochet to your list. oh fuck. WHITE MALE AMERICANS provided support for this dictator to come into power because they thought the country was becoming too red. oh man latin people have power too!!!
listen the power usually rests in the hands of straight white men in our country. deal with it.
smergio:
I will admit my people's white privilege if you admit your people's rhythm privilege.
Also, I wouldn't say that real estate is inherently racist. What is true is that real estate is a market economy, so it's really just classist, which in most cases in this country, breaks down along racial lines.
And I don't know what Pinnochio has to do with any of this. Hasn't he suffered enough already?
re: Smergio & Meaghan
Go sell crazy someplace else.
Guys please direct constructive comments about alternative parties/outings to Zack's post:
Thursday, October 02, 2008
Belling The Cat: TNG Needs Event Planners
Ms. Cavanaugh deserves a great deal of credit for opening this issue to discussion. Some very constructive things have come out of this dialogue about stuff we can all do together outside the conventional bar environment. The more diverse our range of activity, the greater our chance to enjoy and learn from each other.
Yo Smerge...
The Blade website just reported (Oct 3, 5:47 PM) another bias attack. Two gay men (a 23-year-old Georgetown medical student and companion; race undisclosed and irrelvant) were verbally and physically assaulted in Georgetown along the canal by two "Muslim" men of Middle Eatern descent".
So tell me, how are gay men not living and socializing in "historically black" neighborhoods antagonizing people of color and deserving of attack?
Your self-loathing "blame the victim" strategery doesn't add up.
"** Editor's note: Please keep the comments polite and civil. Remember that TNG is for building community, not tossing around hateful names and trivializing others' experiences. Take a deep breath before replying to a comment you don't agree with. **"
Did it ever occur to you (or Meaghan) that requests from blog administrators to "keep the comments polite and civil", to refrain from "trivializing others' experiences" were directed at us all...including you and Meaghan?
Guess not cuz only white (gay) men are evil. The Muslim Middle Eastern thugs who attacked those two gay men in Georgetown were clearly provoked and within their rights. How dare those gay men exist!
To all those following this thread, we hope to see you on Saturday the 11th:
http://www.thenewgay.net/2008/10/saturday-tng-day-at-beach.html
I'm with Meaghan O'Malley. Clearly some of us tried to reach out and you ignored our voices.
Here is the exact text of a message I sent you on September 23rd:
"i was hoping you would reply to the thread and we could engage in a conversation about the issues we feel might be contributing to the low turnout of women then strategize on how to address those issues.
tng has a huge problem with diversity in its audience. not only is it overwhelmingly male, its overwhelmingly white. this isn't intentional but there have also been no clear attempts to address this concern.
there are also clear gaps in the queer spectrum as it relates to gender identity and presentation.
partnerships could be built to address these issues. i'd be interested in participating in a team-based approach to addressing these concerns. please contact me if something of this type takes place."
I'm still waiting on a response. Don't go crying that no one is standing with you when you turn away people who are willing to help.
amy - here is a ditto copy of a letter i sent you three and a half weeks ago:
"please come over to my house so that we can get wasted on cheap boxed wine; hook up on my bearskin rug; and then go build a community of homosexual ladies."
you never responded. granted i think i forgot to put a return address, but still, i mean, i took the time to write in cursive, you could've taken the time to find my address.
"tng has a huge problem with diversity in its audience. not only is it overwhelmingly male, its overwhelmingly white. this isn't intentional but there have also been no clear attempts to address this concern."
Pardon me? I've only been reading this blog for several months, but I've often witnessed the administrators plead/beg/offer lap dances in an attempt to recruit more diverse perspectives in the authorship. Your complaint is about the readership of the blog, so I guess it's only tangentially related, but really, what do you want them to do?
It's a website! Do you want them to make it a private forum with a quota of how many white males get to read/participate? Or would you prefer them to place pay-per-click advertisements on websites with a certain demographic target in an effort to lower the percentage of white males who read the site?
As a side note, I'm extremely uninterested in any of Ms. Cavanaugh's personal correspondence, and I assume she has her reasons in the way she chooses to handle it.
re: TFS
TNG staff are demonstrably committed to diversity. It is a moot point. If you (and Meaghan) have a problem with TNG readership attempt change or move on.
re: Adam
I understand and appreciate your attempt to lighten things up with some much needed humor but I think we should leave that particular phrase alone.
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